What is a "core" profession? - Guild Wars Forums

Shmanka · Mar 13, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

With GW:EN probably only moments away from release details I began to ponder the "what ifs" of the new coming game myself. Usually by this time already plausible rumors have been leaked out on development to begin hype. Yet this was suttle, back on topic I began to look at what Anet HAS accomplished over this period of time. To much disgress alot of people would like to argue the statement that I believe is true: Arena Net has done well with the new classes compared to the core.

This is true for the pure fact that I believe some of the core classes (one specifically) was left out in regards to the new stand alone games.

My thesis: There are actually 5 different "core" professions in the world of PvP, compared to the 6 Anet has told us based off how the Primary attributes work for each profession.

What I will do: I will briefly dive into each profession from Prophecies(and soon possibly updated to Factions and Nightfall) and along the way attempt to determine what "core" is. At the moment we all believe it to be (for the majority) the broadest with no specific direction. Keeping this in mind while I attempt to hit the functions of what all 6(possibly 10 if I get back online later

) professions do, and what considers them broad, or specific.

Prophecies The first of all campaigns, and the one with the named "core" professions that would be compatible and competible in all future environments henceforth. Being very basic in skill selection and great in terms of power no skill from Prophecies should ever be underestimated to this day in most PvP formats. This does not mean every skill is a chuck norris round house kick but creativity had definitely flown through the design team, as many failures of Prophecies skills there are twice as many successors used in PvP formats today.

Warrior
By far the most popular class in the PvE world, and the best form of General pressure in PvP. This high armor class has a great skill selection from ranging on pure damage pressure, to condition depending on weapon and skill selection. The warrior is definitely only focused when the skill bar is accustomed to do so. Warriors Primary Attribute reads:

"When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration. Many skills, especially those related to surviving and inflicting damage, become more effective with higher Strength." -Guildwiki.org

The warrior is obviously a master at all weapons, ranged or melee. Dealing more damage per blow then other classes on average. So what makes the warriors "broad"? Starting off, how its primary attribute does not directly affect the other attributes, therefore not limiting strength to say a wand. As innefective as that is perhaps one day we could even see a change in that, but as it is strength is limiting only to weapons. So since he only deals more damage with weapons, althought ANY weapon is something I would consider "broad" and therefore "core".

Result: Core Class

Ranger
Expertise: "For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, and Rangers skills are decreased by 4%. Several skills, especially those related to Energy costs and skill recharge times, become more effective with higher Expertise." (sic)

In otherwords the ranger primarily reduces the energy cost of every non- spell skill. This is commonly debated as the most powerful primary attribute in PvP alongside with Soul Reaping(we will get to this later).

As powerful as it is, should the ranger be considered "core"? I think the answer is intuitively obvious and therefore yes. The ranger has a wide variety in the skills he can select to become more energy efficient for himself compared to the other classes. Example Touch Ranger.

Result: Core Class

Mesmer
Fast casting reduces the amount of time required for casting spells
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Fast_Casting

Obviously after reading through that summary quite quickly you can notice that the mesmer has great benefits to its fast casting primary attribute.

This works for "all spells", this cannot be as general as possible. Everything from Meteor Shower to Reversal of Fortune gain benefit from fast casting.

Result: Core Class

Elementalist
"For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3. Several skills, related to gaining Health or Energy, become more effective with a higher Energy Storage."

This is a very obvious and general attribute as well, the ability to use energy for any purpose required in consecutive order is powerful in its own. The ability to use Ranger Bow attacks, no matter what the cost, again as ineffective as it may be, is still possible. Healing costs too high? Elementalist. Want that extra monk support? Elementalist. Looking for a self sustaining build? More then likely.. Elementalist. Ether Prodigy, has fueled this profession in PvP since the beginning of competitive GvG, and is still used today for its flexibility whether it is a monk or ritualist secondary to help in the monk backlines, Assasin secondary to help in the split tactics or gank etc etc.
This is by far a core profession.

Result: Core Class

Necromancer
Soul reaping reads. For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half that amount for Spirits.

This one is difficult to evaluate although it is not completely core as in the other professions, it is truly not specific yet it is something else: conditional.
In other words something must be in effect for this effect to work. The ability specifically says something needs to die in order to gain benefit. Compared to the other professions we have seen this is truly a different turn of events. In the PvE atmosphere it is obvious to say "of course this is a core profession things die all the time!" Yet in PvP it is theorhetically possible that nothing dies until the last minute, yet. Something must die in order for the game to end in any PvP atmosphere essentially, especially relating to GvG and most HA maps. Since something must happen and this is affected by the "must" and it is not specific as to what or what spells and skills, as much as I am hesitant this profession is considered core.

Result: Core Class

Monk
Divine Favor reads:
"For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast Monk spells on them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to energy gain and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor."

This is where the cruel turn of fate turns towards. The monk has a very huge fatal in it to ever be considered "broad'/"core". It restricts its primary attribute to its other skill branches. There is no reason whatsoever in the PvP competitive atmosphere to change a monks secondary profession other then the pure selection of how to handle energy management. Example, a Necro/Monk could profit from soul reaping and healing spells, yet a Monk/Necro gains close to absolutely nothing. Not one necro skill is aided by divine favor. This applies to every Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Elementalist skill as well. The monk is not "broad" whatsoever, it only profits from using its own tree skill compared to the other five in which we have seen to be able to handle skills from different professions. The monk is sadly....

Result: Specified Class

So what does this mean? Did Anet drop the bomb? Why is there only 5 core professions in the core campaign? Stop worrying first off, this is observation I have done and evaluation of what the definition "core" should actually determine. If Anet still considers these professions core, then it is obviously only on the basis of the fact that "we got here first" compared to "we are the most flexible". Which in more then one time Anet has thought it was the second. This is sort of a head twister I agree but it comes clearer upon more and more consideration. Why should the other 5 get PA's that work with other professions compared to the monk? What makes him different? Well too much honestly, he can only aid in his own skills and not benefit from any other secondary profession in any different manner. I suggest a reworking of Divine Favor entirely, to me from a personal flavor standpoint Divine Favor is not something that should relate to monk skills but spells on allies and enemies. Not any accordance to religion but if "heaven" is on your side, then you should be able to "banish" your foes with more power, and "aid" your allies with whatever is given to you.

A proposed reworking of Divine Favor: "For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast spells on them, also any spells cast against enemies deal 3.2 more damage to them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to smiting, and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor."
THIS WAS NOT TESTED, JUST A PROPOSED IDEA TO CONSIDER THIS CLASS CORE.

If a similar plan such as this was implemented, we would definitely have a more broad profession ahead of us. Being able to use mesmer remove hex skills with benefit, or elementalist damaging spells with more power. The monk profession itself would have very distinctive qualities compared to the other professions and not just diving into its own skill sets.

Shmanka · Mar 13, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Sorry for the double post, yet this was moved to Q&A where I do not think this actually belongs, it is not the question what is a core profession but a thought I had on what should qualify as one. If you can move this to the PvP forums or another designated area that suits my little analysis it would be appreciated.

Canadian Bacon · Mar 13, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Some interesting thoughts there...I can't say I've ever thought about the professions that way, but you definitely make sense.

A re-working of divine favor is unlikely, but what you proposed is plausible, as long as the offensive spell damage boost was lowered from 3.2. At 16 divine favor, thats 51 damage boost per spell

But that's why it's just an idea!

As far as what is core vs. non-core, you've already stated Anet's reasons. The orinigal 6 from Proph are a constant, playable by all campaigns, where the others are chapter-specific.

DeanBB · Mar 13, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Your basic concept of what constitutes a "core profession" is flawed. They are core because they are the original 6 and selected by Anet to be present in any game, regardless of what you may define as their role or ability.

How does a Warrior's primary attribute of Strength benefit a caster 2nd profession? That eliminates all but a few professions therefore a warrior should not be "core" either - if I am understanding your concept here.

How does a mesmer fit with a warrior or ranger who have no spells? Fast casting would not apply to them so I'd have to question mesmer as core as well.

What's the point of this exercise?

ss1986v2 · Mar 13, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

an interesting exercise here. but im not sure the point.

this theory is based off changing the definition of "core" when it applies to Guild Wars. under this premise, id agree; the monk is a very specialized class, whose primary attribute doesnt translate to other roles. but it doesnt seem to actually mean too much, because it doesnt have anything to do with the actual definition of "core" in regards to GW.

ill try and make my point with an example. lets accept the definition of a "shoe" as any kind of footwear (sneaker, boot, pump, sandle, ect...). now if we change the definition of a "shoe" to mean only footwear that has laces, a sandle is now no longer a "shoe". what value this has, i dont see.

the thinking here is correct and interesting, but is dependent on a premise that i dont see the value in. i think you thought to deep into this: "core" has nothing to do with flexibility and everything to do with the fact that these 6 classes with be available to every new, stand-alone campaign. just look at "core" skills; they arent the best or most flexible skills, they are just available to all campaigns. and thats it. it really is that simple.

Xenex Xclame · Mar 13, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I agree with dean,i was already looking at your post strange when you said there are only 5 core profession instead of the 6 Anet told us there were and then you completely go wrong by saying the monk isn't core.Your whole post is wrong because of what dean said.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 13, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I must agree with ss1986v2 here. Changing the definition of 'core' tp something you thought of has no value. According to your logic monks would not be core, but sadly your definition of core isn't what the rest of the world sees as core.
I would disagree that a Mo/N doesn't gain anything from going monk primary. You're right Divine Favor is of no use to the necromancer part of the Mo/N, but by the nature of this game's mechanics he gains the option to spec more than 12 in his monk attributes, to spec in Divine Favor, and to use the monk part of his skill arsenal more effectively. While this won't help you in the case of a Tainted Flesh death necro with Purge Signet as his only monk skill, it will help in case of the Offering of Blood Boon Prot (the only viable example of a Mo/N I could think of. R.I.P.). This is an advantage, no matter how you put it.
Also, I think monks are the most balanced class in all of Guild Wars at the moment, tied with Warriors. They should not be changed.

ss1986v2 · Mar 13, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

i felt i needed to add something else. you are correct in that the monk is the most specialized "core" class when you consider primary attributes. divine favor has zero affect on any other skill from any other line, while all the others can have at least some effect (fc with spells, strength with melee weps, expertise with skills).

i think the problem is with your opening statement and your thesis. if you had posed the query "Why is the monk the most specialized of the "core" classes?", i think you would have met with better reception. thats a much better topic of discussion, rather than questioning or changing the definition of what "core" means to GW.

as for that question, id have to say they are the most specialized when it comes to their primary attribute because they, at the time of original release, where the only class with any kind of serious healing or protection. they were designed to do one very important thing that no other class could do at the time: keep people alive.

Shmanka · Mar 14, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

They are core because they are the original 6 and selected by Anet to be present in any game, regardless of what you may define as their role or ability.

Which has a subtle problem to it. If the original 6 professions were core it could gain from having secondary professions. The monk does not, the mesmer is broad in its aspect of dealing with spells, the warrior with weapons.
The mesmer has the option of not using Domination, and the Warrior has the option not to use an axe. The monk does not. Therefore, if anything the monk is limited in its abilities for its PA. Where as other classes thrive with new expansions, the monk solely gets more and more secluded with choice and possible number of effective combinations.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/professions/

Quote:

Primary Profession:
Your primary profession determines your hero's basic appearance, including the type of armor the hero wears. It also provides several attributes that improve skills over time including a primary attribute that is not available when the profession is chosen as a secondary.

Quote:

Secondary Profession:
Your secondary profession provides your hero with a second set of attributes and skills to compliment the first. (Your secondary profession does not have access to the primary attribute for that profession.)

This is obviously not the case for the Monks compared to the other 5 I have pointed out.

After rehashing thoughts I for some reason am still hesitant to consider the monks a perfectly "broad" class in which they should determine "core". With every new standalone game the monk becomes less and less feasable with so many more skills available to use. The monk profession is completely limited to the defence and healing of allies, while the ritualist can do the same in effect yet be specified with spirits.

This is not a post about me not liking monks, but a greater suggestion as to how Divine Favor actually works compared to every other class. Paragon specifies in shouts etc only, and he is obviously not a core or essential class. Yet the monk is, while flexibility can ensue in the other 5 professions the monk is shoved into a package to Mexico with no return address. If he is considered "core" then there is a huge imbalance between how much better every other profession gets as games progress, and thus our lonely healer gets his few skills. Limiting the variety.

Poison Ivy · Mar 14, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I have a slightly different view, they are based on the 3 attributes that shape the humanity, and here they are

Warrior
Ranger
Physical. One relies on close range, other from a distance

Elementalist
Mesmer
Mental. One uses the mind physically, other in a uses the mind mentally.

Necromancer
Monk
Religious. One draws from death, other from life.

Livingston · Mar 14, 2007, 07:06 AM // 07:06

As other people said, the problem is that your definition of core does not apply because it is not the proper definition of core that GW uses.

Core only means that those are the professions that will be available through out every campaign, regardless of what is added.

Just as Core skills are skills that can be aquired through out every campaign.

Assassin is not a core profession because you can not create one in Prophicies or in Nightfall.

A Dervish is not a core profession because you can not create one in Prophicies or Factions.

A Monk is a core profession because you can create one in Prophicies, Factions, or Nightfall. And you will also be able to create one in the next exapnsion and any after that.

It has absolutely nothing to do with skills or primary attributes.

The monk is the weird one out because of the very things you said, but that doesn't make him a non-core profession.

It just means the monk is weird, but that's because it's the only core profession whose primary function is not to damage the enemy. They do have smiting, but smiting is not the primary goal of a Monk. Healing and Protection are, which is why the Monk's primary attribute aids in this.

I agree that Divine Favor is the most limited of all the primary attributes, but I don't really see anything wrong with that as a Monk has a very specified role. If you have a monk in your party, you do not want him there as some weird Smiting Necro or Flaming Protectionist (or whatever :P ), you want him healing and protecting your team. Thus Divine Favor allows you to do so.

You don't need a Monk to be "broad," you need a monk to do their job and to do it as well as possible.

I don't know why you equate the word core with "broad," as it doesn't have this meaning.

I could see where you are coming from if you say that core professions should be broad, which is true. However, I think the Monk would be the exception, as it is. The monk is not a core profession because he is broad or versatile, as you pointed out; a monk is a core profession because every game will need healers. That is the only reason for the Monk to be a core profession, but that's really the only reason needed. It ties back to the actual definition of core, which is the professions and skills that are avilable in every game. A monk needs to be available in every game, thus it is core.

Livingston

FlameoutAlchemist · Mar 14, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

This is a well thought-out essay, Shmanka, and I applaud you for your effort on it. Let me add my thoughts as to why the six classes are considered core, but I'm going to come at it from a storyline perspective rather than a game mechanic point of view. Follow me on this one as much as you can, because I'm going to ask for you all to use your imaginations on this.

In just about every corner of a given world, you'll find healers, fighters, rangers, necros, eles, and mesmers because all of their trades are needed in just about every nation and area for various reasons - Elona needs rangers to help tame the beasts of their jungles and deserts as much as Kryta needs them to control the beasts of their forests. Monks are also needed wherever you go because people will get hurt as surely as they need to breath air. When you have more than one person in a given area, conflict can arise so fighters are prevalent too, regardless of the cause. Because that which lives also dies, there will be those who are covet this facet of life, so necromancers are around in all different corners. Not everyone everywhere is content with reality as they see it, so people talented enough to reshape reality will do so, hence mesmers. Same with elementalists.

The different, non-core classes represent those specialties that are unique to given areas. For example, assassins and ritualists are people who have been specially trained by masters in the 'east' in the ways of killing efficiently and communing with the spirits. Also consider that Elona, if I'm not mistaken, is the land most closely connected with the gods. Because of this, Dervishes would likely only be found there only because of this strong connection. The Order of the Sunspears also started in Elona, so the fact that Paragons are exclusive to Elona only makes sense.

*whew* sorry for the long post, but that's the way I see it.

Mar 13, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46	#1
Shmanka Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: In Your Head Guild: The Brave Will Fall [Nion] Profession: Me/	What is a "core" profession? With GW:EN probably only moments away from release details I began to ponder the "what ifs" of the new coming game myself. Usually by this time already plausible rumors have been leaked out on development to begin hype. Yet this was suttle, back on topic I began to look at what Anet HAS accomplished over this period of time. To much disgress alot of people would like to argue the statement that I believe is true: Arena Net has done well with the new classes compared to the core. This is true for the pure fact that I believe some of the core classes (one specifically) was left out in regards to the new stand alone games. My thesis: There are actually 5 different "core" professions in the world of PvP, compared to the 6 Anet has told us based off how the Primary attributes work for each profession. What I will do: I will briefly dive into each profession from Prophecies(and soon possibly updated to Factions and Nightfall) and along the way attempt to determine what "core" is. At the moment we all believe it to be (for the majority) the broadest with no specific direction. Keeping this in mind while I attempt to hit the functions of what all 6(possibly 10 if I get back online later ) professions do, and what considers them broad, or specific. Prophecies The first of all campaigns, and the one with the named "core" professions that would be compatible and competible in all future environments henceforth. Being very basic in skill selection and great in terms of power no skill from Prophecies should ever be underestimated to this day in most PvP formats. This does not mean every skill is a chuck norris round house kick but creativity had definitely flown through the design team, as many failures of Prophecies skills there are twice as many successors used in PvP formats today. Warrior By far the most popular class in the PvE world, and the best form of General pressure in PvP. This high armor class has a great skill selection from ranging on pure damage pressure, to condition depending on weapon and skill selection. The warrior is definitely only focused when the skill bar is accustomed to do so. Warriors Primary Attribute reads: "When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration. Many skills, especially those related to surviving and inflicting damage, become more effective with higher Strength." -Guildwiki.org The warrior is obviously a master at all weapons, ranged or melee. Dealing more damage per blow then other classes on average. So what makes the warriors "broad"? Starting off, how its primary attribute does not directly affect the other attributes, therefore not limiting strength to say a wand. As innefective as that is perhaps one day we could even see a change in that, but as it is strength is limiting only to weapons. So since he only deals more damage with weapons, althought ANY weapon is something I would consider "broad" and therefore "core". Result: Core Class Ranger Expertise: "For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, and Rangers skills are decreased by 4%. Several skills, especially those related to Energy costs and skill recharge times, become more effective with higher Expertise." (sic) In otherwords the ranger primarily reduces the energy cost of every non- spell skill. This is commonly debated as the most powerful primary attribute in PvP alongside with Soul Reaping(we will get to this later). As powerful as it is, should the ranger be considered "core"? I think the answer is intuitively obvious and therefore yes. The ranger has a wide variety in the skills he can select to become more energy efficient for himself compared to the other classes. Example Touch Ranger. Result: Core Class Mesmer Fast casting reduces the amount of time required for casting spells http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Fast_Casting Obviously after reading through that summary quite quickly you can notice that the mesmer has great benefits to its fast casting primary attribute. This works for "all spells", this cannot be as general as possible. Everything from Meteor Shower to Reversal of Fortune gain benefit from fast casting. Result: Core Class Elementalist "For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3. Several skills, related to gaining Health or Energy, become more effective with a higher Energy Storage." This is a very obvious and general attribute as well, the ability to use energy for any purpose required in consecutive order is powerful in its own. The ability to use Ranger Bow attacks, no matter what the cost, again as ineffective as it may be, is still possible. Healing costs too high? Elementalist. Want that extra monk support? Elementalist. Looking for a self sustaining build? More then likely.. Elementalist. Ether Prodigy, has fueled this profession in PvP since the beginning of competitive GvG, and is still used today for its flexibility whether it is a monk or ritualist secondary to help in the monk backlines, Assasin secondary to help in the split tactics or gank etc etc. This is by far a core profession. Result: Core Class Necromancer Soul reaping reads. For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half that amount for Spirits. This one is difficult to evaluate although it is not completely core as in the other professions, it is truly not specific yet it is something else: conditional. In other words something must be in effect for this effect to work. The ability specifically says something needs to die in order to gain benefit. Compared to the other professions we have seen this is truly a different turn of events. In the PvE atmosphere it is obvious to say "of course this is a core profession things die all the time!" Yet in PvP it is theorhetically possible that nothing dies until the last minute, yet. Something must die in order for the game to end in any PvP atmosphere essentially, especially relating to GvG and most HA maps. Since something must happen and this is affected by the "must" and it is not specific as to what or what spells and skills, as much as I am hesitant this profession is considered core. Result: Core Class Monk Divine Favor reads: "For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast Monk spells on them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to energy gain and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor." This is where the cruel turn of fate turns towards. The monk has a very huge fatal in it to ever be considered "broad'/"core". It restricts its primary attribute to its other skill branches. There is no reason whatsoever in the PvP competitive atmosphere to change a monks secondary profession other then the pure selection of how to handle energy management. Example, a Necro/Monk could profit from soul reaping and healing spells, yet a Monk/Necro gains close to absolutely nothing. Not one necro skill is aided by divine favor. This applies to every Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Elementalist skill as well. The monk is not "broad" whatsoever, it only profits from using its own tree skill compared to the other five in which we have seen to be able to handle skills from different professions. The monk is sadly.... Result: Specified Class So what does this mean? Did Anet drop the bomb? Why is there only 5 core professions in the core campaign? Stop worrying first off, this is observation I have done and evaluation of what the definition "core" should actually determine. If Anet still considers these professions core, then it is obviously only on the basis of the fact that "we got here first" compared to "we are the most flexible". Which in more then one time Anet has thought it was the second. This is sort of a head twister I agree but it comes clearer upon more and more consideration. Why should the other 5 get PA's that work with other professions compared to the monk? What makes him different? Well too much honestly, he can only aid in his own skills and not benefit from any other secondary profession in any different manner. I suggest a reworking of Divine Favor entirely, to me from a personal flavor standpoint Divine Favor is not something that should relate to monk skills but spells on allies and enemies. Not any accordance to religion but if "heaven" is on your side, then you should be able to "banish" your foes with more power, and "aid" your allies with whatever is given to you. A proposed reworking of Divine Favor: "For each rank of Divine Favor, allies are healed for 3.2 whenever you cast spells on them, also any spells cast against enemies deal 3.2 more damage to them. Several Monk skills, especially spells relating to smiting, and healing, become more effective with a higher Divine Favor." THIS WAS NOT TESTED, JUST A PROPOSED IDEA TO CONSIDER THIS CLASS CORE. If a similar plan such as this was implemented, we would definitely have a more broad profession ahead of us. Being able to use mesmer remove hex skills with benefit, or elementalist damaging spells with more power. The monk profession itself would have very distinctive qualities compared to the other professions and not just diving into its own skill sets.

Mar 13, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03	#3
Canadian Bacon Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Guild: Kingdom of Tyria [KoT]	Some interesting thoughts there...I can't say I've ever thought about the professions that way, but you definitely make sense. A re-working of divine favor is unlikely, but what you proposed is plausible, as long as the offensive spell damage boost was lowered from 3.2. At 16 divine favor, thats 51 damage boost per spell But that's why it's just an idea! As far as what is core vs. non-core, you've already stated Anet's reasons. The orinigal 6 from Proph are a constant, playable by all campaigns, where the others are chapter-specific. Last edited by Canadian Bacon; Mar 13, 2007 at 08:08 PM // 20:08..

Mar 13, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12	#2
Shmanka Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: In Your Head Guild: The Brave Will Fall [Nion] Profession: Me/	Sorry for the double post, yet this was moved to Q&A where I do not think this actually belongs, it is not the question what is a core profession but a thought I had on what should qualify as one. If you can move this to the PvP forums or another designated area that suits my little analysis it would be appreciated.

Mar 13, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06	#4
DeanBB Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Arizona Guild: Wizardry Players Guild, http://4guildwars.7.forumer.com	Your basic concept of what constitutes a "core profession" is flawed. They are core because they are the original 6 and selected by Anet to be present in any game, regardless of what you may define as their role or ability. How does a Warrior's primary attribute of Strength benefit a caster 2nd profession? That eliminates all but a few professions therefore a warrior should not be "core" either - if I am understanding your concept here. How does a mesmer fit with a warrior or ranger who have no spells? Fast casting would not apply to them so I'd have to question mesmer as core as well. What's the point of this exercise?

Mar 13, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31	#5
ss1986v2 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2006 Profession: Mo/	an interesting exercise here. but im not sure the point. this theory is based off changing the definition of "core" when it applies to Guild Wars. under this premise, id agree; the monk is a very specialized class, whose primary attribute doesnt translate to other roles. but it doesnt seem to actually mean too much, because it doesnt have anything to do with the actual definition of "core" in regards to GW. ill try and make my point with an example. lets accept the definition of a "shoe" as any kind of footwear (sneaker, boot, pump, sandle, ect...). now if we change the definition of a "shoe" to mean only footwear that has laces, a sandle is now no longer a "shoe". what value this has, i dont see. the thinking here is correct and interesting, but is dependent on a premise that i dont see the value in. i think you thought to deep into this: "core" has nothing to do with flexibility and everything to do with the fact that these 6 classes with be available to every new, stand-alone campaign. just look at "core" skills; they arent the best or most flexible skills, they are just available to all campaigns. and thats it. it really is that simple.

Mar 13, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35	#6
Xenex Xclame Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: DPX Profession: R/	I agree with dean,i was already looking at your post strange when you said there are only 5 core profession instead of the 6 Anet told us there were and then you completely go wrong by saying the monk isn't core.Your whole post is wrong because of what dean said.

Mar 13, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56	#7
Thomas.knbk Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2006	I must agree with ss1986v2 here. Changing the definition of 'core' tp something you thought of has no value. According to your logic monks would not be core, but sadly your definition of core isn't what the rest of the world sees as core. I would disagree that a Mo/N doesn't gain anything from going monk primary. You're right Divine Favor is of no use to the necromancer part of the Mo/N, but by the nature of this game's mechanics he gains the option to spec more than 12 in his monk attributes, to spec in Divine Favor, and to use the monk part of his skill arsenal more effectively. While this won't help you in the case of a Tainted Flesh death necro with Purge Signet as his only monk skill, it will help in case of the Offering of Blood Boon Prot (the only viable example of a Mo/N I could think of. R.I.P.). This is an advantage, no matter how you put it. Also, I think monks are the most balanced class in all of Guild Wars at the moment, tied with Warriors. They should not be changed.

Mar 13, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06	#8
ss1986v2 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2006 Profession: Mo/	i felt i needed to add something else. you are correct in that the monk is the most specialized "core" class when you consider primary attributes. divine favor has zero affect on any other skill from any other line, while all the others can have at least some effect (fc with spells, strength with melee weps, expertise with skills). i think the problem is with your opening statement and your thesis. if you had posed the query "Why is the monk the most specialized of the "core" classes?", i think you would have met with better reception. thats a much better topic of discussion, rather than questioning or changing the definition of what "core" means to GW. as for that question, id have to say they are the most specialized when it comes to their primary attribute because they, at the time of original release, where the only class with any kind of serious healing or protection. they were designed to do one very important thing that no other class could do at the time: keep people alive.

Mar 14, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29	#10
Poison Ivy Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto Guild: Hopping Profession: Mo/A	I have a slightly different view, they are based on the 3 attributes that shape the humanity, and here they are Warrior Ranger Physical. One relies on close range, other from a distance Elementalist Mesmer Mental. One uses the mind physically, other in a uses the mind mentally. Necromancer Monk Religious. One draws from death, other from life.

Mar 14, 2007, 07:06 AM // 07:06	#11
Livingston Jungle Guide Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Edge of the World Guild: [L] [GET]	As other people said, the problem is that your definition of core does not apply because it is not the proper definition of core that GW uses. Core only means that those are the professions that will be available through out every campaign, regardless of what is added. Just as Core skills are skills that can be aquired through out every campaign. Assassin is not a core profession because you can not create one in Prophicies or in Nightfall. A Dervish is not a core profession because you can not create one in Prophicies or Factions. A Monk is a core profession because you can create one in Prophicies, Factions, or Nightfall. And you will also be able to create one in the next exapnsion and any after that. It has absolutely nothing to do with skills or primary attributes. The monk is the weird one out because of the very things you said, but that doesn't make him a non-core profession. It just means the monk is weird, but that's because it's the only core profession whose primary function is not to damage the enemy. They do have smiting, but smiting is not the primary goal of a Monk. Healing and Protection are, which is why the Monk's primary attribute aids in this. I agree that Divine Favor is the most limited of all the primary attributes, but I don't really see anything wrong with that as a Monk has a very specified role. If you have a monk in your party, you do not want him there as some weird Smiting Necro or Flaming Protectionist (or whatever :P ), you want him healing and protecting your team. Thus Divine Favor allows you to do so. You don't need a Monk to be "broad," you need a monk to do their job and to do it as well as possible. I don't know why you equate the word core with "broad," as it doesn't have this meaning. I could see where you are coming from if you say that core professions should be broad, which is true. However, I think the Monk would be the exception, as it is. The monk is not a core profession because he is broad or versatile, as you pointed out; a monk is a core profession because every game will need healers. That is the only reason for the Monk to be a core profession, but that's really the only reason needed. It ties back to the actual definition of core, which is the professions and skills that are avilable in every game. A monk needs to be available in every game, thus it is core. Livingston

Mar 14, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56	#12
FlameoutAlchemist Hitmonk Extraordinarre!! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lurking moar on my forums Guild: Starvin Chillin on Lincoln Drive [MAFB] Profession: Mo/Me	This is a well thought-out essay, Shmanka, and I applaud you for your effort on it. Let me add my thoughts as to why the six classes are considered core, but I'm going to come at it from a storyline perspective rather than a game mechanic point of view. Follow me on this one as much as you can, because I'm going to ask for you all to use your imaginations on this. In just about every corner of a given world, you'll find healers, fighters, rangers, necros, eles, and mesmers because all of their trades are needed in just about every nation and area for various reasons - Elona needs rangers to help tame the beasts of their jungles and deserts as much as Kryta needs them to control the beasts of their forests. Monks are also needed wherever you go because people will get hurt as surely as they need to breath air. When you have more than one person in a given area, conflict can arise so fighters are prevalent too, regardless of the cause. Because that which lives also dies, there will be those who are covet this facet of life, so necromancers are around in all different corners. Not everyone everywhere is content with reality as they see it, so people talented enough to reshape reality will do so, hence mesmers. Same with elementalists. The different, non-core classes represent those specialties that are unique to given areas. For example, assassins and ritualists are people who have been specially trained by masters in the 'east' in the ways of killing efficiently and communing with the spirits. Also consider that Elona, if I'm not mistaken, is the land most closely connected with the gods. Because of this, Dervishes would likely only be found there only because of this strong connection. The Order of the Sunspears also started in Elona, so the fact that Paragons are exclusive to Elona only makes sense. whew sorry for the long post, but that's the way I see it.